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styky
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 Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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You realise that this is the second time in a month that Freedominion has been made mention of.
Here's the other
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 GrodyJoined: 01 Nov 2006 Total posts: 231 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Senator Elect wrote: | Pro-Reform folks should, in the interest of full disclosure, agree with the following statement:
"By splitting the right I acknowledge, consent, and support the 100% certainty that the Liberals will defeat the Conservatives and govern Canada for the forseeable future. By supporting the Reform party I explicitly prefer a Liberal government to a Conservative government and pledge to actively work to defeat the Conservative party of Canada because if given the choice between the LPC and the CPC I prefer the LPC.
I recognize that there are two parties that can realistically form the next government, the CPC and the LPC; by not opposing the LPC at the ballot box it is logical to conclude that I am not opposed to a Liberal government. Thank you and have a nice day." |
Sorry, try again. I'm not going to be manipulated into voting for a party that doesn't reflect my values. I'm 36, and for the first time since I've been eligible to vote, I have no party speaking for me.
I've stopped donating to the party, and I've stopped voicing my support for the Conservatives among friends and family. I actually feel a little embarrassed for all the support I've shown for Harper and the Conservative party. Kind of like I wrote a glowing recommendation for someone, and they ended up stealing from the company and sleeping with the boss's wife.
The further the Conservatives move to the left, the further the other parties move to the left to one-up them. So I believe that my support for them at this time is actually damaging to the country in the long run. We need a Conservative party that will hold the line, and not bend under the pressure of the MSM and the activists. If that means that the party needs another term in opposition, so be it.
Until I have a party representing my values, I will spend my time and money on more worthy causes that actually have a chance of making a difference in this country. |
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nickjbor
Joined: 12 Mar 2004 Total posts: 8763 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Age: 25 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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its hard to guage what would have or could have happened. IMO in 1993 if not for Reform the PC Party would have certainly won more then 2 seats. Although some would have stayed home, IMO there were enough who would have voted PC to give them a caucus of real size.
then in 1997, who is to say that with a real caucus, the PC party would not have done better, or even formed government. the Liberals barley held on that election, even 10 seats the other way would have resulted in a Minority, and who can predict how that would have ended. 50 extra seats between Reform and PC and we may well have had Prime Minister Preston Manning.
By 2000 you end up with a situation thats impossible to predict. if we did have a reform minority government in 1997, we might have had a reform majority by 1998.
In 2004 a number of "red tories" and I predicted that had Scott Brison won the PC leadership, he would have won the election and become Prime Minister, because as I said at the time 'Canadians dont want a conservative party, they want a liberal party that uses different colours' though I no longer know if I agree with that.
what I DO know is that a Reform party that stayed within the west would have allowed a PC party to win seats in Ontario. John Tory, like him or not, is on track to win between 40 and 60 seats in the ontario legislature, add that to the 15 or so seats the PC's took easily from the atlantic, and you have a caucus that could compare in size with the Bloc and Reform. Throw in the current Quebec mix, where the Liberals no longer have a stranglehold, and you could top 80 or 90 seats. Alone that's not really much, but when you realize that the Liberals would match us in each area, that means they only get 80 or 90 seats as well. We might have even seen a "Bloc Reform" government with Bloc Quebecois support that devolved a heck of alot of power to the Provinces. now THAT's a federal government I could support
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Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators. Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
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 Maikeru
Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Total posts: 4879 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Grody wrote: | | I'm 36, and for the first time since I've been eligible to vote, I have no party speaking for me. |
Yes, well, since you've been eligible to vote, the only party that's been 'speaking for' Canadians has been the Liberal Party.
Minority governance has only given other parties the chance to get a word in edgewise.
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"Let all the babies be born. Then let us drown those we do not like." - Chesterton - |
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| Heartofsong83 Joined: 29 Apr 2005 Total posts: 13384 Location: Up in the woods... Age: 26 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | its hard to guage what would have or could have happened. IMO in 1993 if not for Reform the PC Party would have certainly won more then 2 seats. Although some would have stayed home, IMO there were enough who would have voted PC to give them a caucus of real size. |
Some would have gone PC, but their numbers were so low then that they would have barely made a dent. The Liberals would have still virtually swept Ontario if Reform was not running, maybe only 2 or 3 in Ontario (although a Reform-Liberal race would have given about 15 seats to Reform, plus an NDP seat or two).
| Quote: | | then in 1997, who is to say that with a real caucus, the PC party would not have done better, or even formed government. the Liberals barley held on that election, even 10 seats the other way would have resulted in a Minority, and who can predict how that would have ended. 50 extra seats between Reform and PC and we may well have had Prime Minister Preston Manning. |
Where would 50 extra seats come from? Even in a two-party race, the Liberals still would have dominated Ontario, especially in a PC-Liberal race. Remember in every election from 1993 to 2000, the Reform/Alliance got well above the PC's in Ontario in terms of popular vote.
| Quote: | | By 2000 you end up with a situation thats impossible to predict. if we did have a reform minority government in 1997, we might have had a reform majority by 1998. |
That's possible, but I don't see how Reform could have won any seats in urban Ontario (where they weren't even competitive in many cases - the Liberals routinely got 60-80% in those seats) or the 1990s Quebec.
| Quote: | | In 2004 a number of "red tories" and I predicted that had Scott Brison won the PC leadership, he would have won the election and become Prime Minister, because as I said at the time 'Canadians dont want a conservative party, they want a liberal party that uses different colours' though I no longer know if I agree with that. |
| Quote: | | what I DO know is that a Reform party that stayed within the west would have allowed a PC party to win seats in Ontario. John Tory, like him or not, is on track to win between 40 and 60 seats in the ontario legislature, add that to the 15 or so seats the PC's took easily from the atlantic, and you have a caucus that could compare in size with the Bloc and Reform. |
John Tory is not getting 40 to 60 seats in the Legislature. He'll be lucky to hold on to what he has now. In the 1990s federal culture, a liberal PC Party would have got maybe 10 seats in 1997 and less in 1993 and 2000. |
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nickjbor
Joined: 12 Mar 2004 Total posts: 8763 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Age: 25 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Heartofsong83 wrote: |
John Tory is not getting 40 to 60 seats in the Legislature. He'll be lucky to hold on to what he has now. |
care to put your money where your mouth is?
anyway, my point is that it was the PC-Ref competition for seats in Ontario that doomed the parties.
here is a map of what ridings the PC's did better in VS what ridings the Alliance did better in, in Ontario
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Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators. Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
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Wlyonmackenzie
Joined: 30 Oct 2002 Total posts: 14830 Location: Knee deep in Progressivist BS Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Grody wrote: | Sorry, try again. I'm not going to be manipulated into voting for a party that doesn't reflect my values. I'm 36, and for the first time since I've been eligible to vote, I have no party speaking for me.
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 Amazing!...Deja Vu! That's exactly how I felt when Mulroney abandoned conservative principles ( and the west) when I made the first few public Refom meetings.
I felt I was in the company of others who had the same experience...in the aerly Reform days it was an amalgamation of people who were all disenfranchised or alienated by mainstream political parties....PCs, libertarians, democrats, constitutionalists, traditionalists even some prairie populists...mostly conservatives and crap load of 3rd and 4th generation westerners.
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Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive; those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis, In Freedom .
Celebrate Hard Likker and Handgun week here at the Shadowy GroupTM   |
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Wlyonmackenzie
Joined: 30 Oct 2002 Total posts: 14830 Location: Knee deep in Progressivist BS Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| nickjbor wrote: | its hard to guage what would have or could have happened. IMO in 1993 if not for Reform the PC Party would have certainly won more then 2 seats. Although some would have stayed home, IMO there were enough who would have voted PC to give them a caucus of real size.
then in 1997, who is to say that with a real caucus, the PC party would not have done better, or even formed government. the Liberals barley held on that election, even 10 seats the other way would have resulted in a Minority, and who can predict how that would have ended. 50 extra seats between Reform and PC and we may well have had Prime Minister Preston Manning.
By 2000 you end up with a situation thats impossible to predict. if we did have a reform minority government in 1997, we might have had a reform majority by 1998.
In 2004 a number of "red tories" and I predicted that had Scott Brison won the PC leadership, he would have won the election and become Prime Minister, because as I said at the time 'Canadians dont want a conservative party, they want a liberal party that uses different colours' though I no longer know if I agree with that.
what I DO know is that a Reform party that stayed within the west would have allowed a PC party to win seats in Ontario. John Tory, like him or not, is on track to win between 40 and 60 seats in the ontario legislature, add that to the 15 or so seats the PC's took easily from the atlantic, and you have a caucus that could compare in size with the Bloc and Reform. Throw in the current Quebec mix, where the Liberals no longer have a stranglehold, and you could top 80 or 90 seats. Alone that's not really much, but when you realize that the Liberals would match us in each area, that means they only get 80 or 90 seats as well. We might have even seen a "Bloc Reform" government with Bloc Quebecois support that devolved a heck of alot of power to the Provinces. now THAT's a federal government I could support |
Interesting twist on a theme I had played with as an alternative to Party amalgamtion...that being a reciprocal agreement for housse cooperation between PC and Reform...this way there would have been a coalition not unlike the CPC but with a western and a eastern leader.
_________________
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive; those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis, In Freedom .
Celebrate Hard Likker and Handgun week here at the Shadowy GroupTM |
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| noel Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Total posts: 275 Location: st,catharines ont. Age: 75 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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for non would be the leader to lead such dire attack for those behind cried forward while those before cried back.. lets go for reform again..
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nickjbor
Joined: 12 Mar 2004 Total posts: 8763 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Age: 25 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Wlyonmackenzie wrote: |
Interesting twist on a theme I had played with as an alternative to Party amalgamtion...that being a reciprocal agreement for housse cooperation between PC and Reform...this way there would have been a coalition not unlike the CPC but with a western and a eastern leader. |
yes. think of Germany with the CDU and CSU. the Reform party could run in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and maybe Manitoba, while PC runs in the rest of the country.
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Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators. Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
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Vundo Draxon
Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Total posts: 4536 Location: Arkham Asylum Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Senator Elect wrote: | Pro-Reform folks should, in the interest of full disclosure, agree with the following statement:
"By splitting the right I acknowledge, consent, and support the 100% certainty that the Liberals will defeat the Conservatives and govern Canada for the forseeable future. By supporting the Reform party I explicitly prefer a Liberal government to a Conservative government and pledge to actively work to defeat the Conservative party of Canada because if given the choice between the LPC and the CPC I prefer the LPC.
I recognize that there are two parties that can realistically form the next government, the CPC and the LPC; by not opposing the LPC at the ballot box it is logical to conclude that I am not opposed to a Liberal government. Thank you and have a nice day." |
Now that is more than just a little bit over the top.
It might be fair to say that they would prefer a Liberal government to a phony "Conservative" party that isn't really conservative in their view at all. But I am sure they would prefer a conservative CPC government to an LPC government.
The question really is where the threshold is. I am not 100% satisfied with this government. But I would rather vote for a party and a leader that does what I want 75% of the time than insist on 100% compliance with what I want and end up having a government and a Prime Minister who does what I want 25% of the time instead.
Is leaving abortion as a non-issue enough to break your support? Is an environmental plan that is less painful than the alternatives still too much? I am still going to support the CPC because they have not done anything that would break my support. Both the Liberals and the NDP have done things which I would consider to be important enough to change my vote. The Conservatives have not yet, but they have done many things I approve of. So while they're not perfect, I will vote for them.
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The cause of liberty becomes a mockery if the price to be paid is the wholesale destruction of those who are to enjoy liberty. |
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Mr. Valentine
Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Total posts: 4161 Location: Nova Scotia Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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A policy convention should be held.
Some contingency plan should be worked out to adapt to the problem of a potential election.
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"You, on the other hand, are clearly pro-al-Qaeda scum, since you have - quite knoiwingly [sic]- become an active agent of the enemy. If this were a just world, there would be swift punishment for people such as yourself, who spread lies and dissenssion [sic] and undermine the war effort." -Adam Yoshida on my pro-terrorist credentials, and endorsing a fascist worldview |
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| doggedlyright Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Pro-Reform folks should, in the interest of full disclosure, agree with the following statement:
"By splitting the right I acknowledge, consent, and support the 100% certainty that the Liberals will defeat the Conservatives and govern Canada for the forseeable future. By supporting the Reform party I explicitly prefer a Liberal government to a Conservative government and pledge to actively work to defeat the Conservative party of Canada because if given the choice between the LPC and the CPC I prefer the LPC.
I recognize that there are two parties that can realistically form the next government, the CPC and the LPC; by not opposing the LPC at the ballot box it is logical to conclude that I am not opposed to a Liberal government. Thank you and have a nice day." |
The exact same words were used by Reform and then Alliance and PCPC members when they were fighting the movement to bring them together.
The parties were brought together by grassroots movement of concerned conservatives hoping to bring together principled conservatives that could govern.
There was much resistance by the parties leaders and governing councils but the people kept at it. The need to merge became so strong that the leaders and the governing councils had no choice but to perform the 100 meter dash to the front to say they were the leaders.
Since they came together based on the grassroots movement, they can be torn apart and rebuilt to reflect what the people desire.
We never wished for a liberal party number two. Mr Harper has not moved to the centre (implying he was at the right in the first place), he was in the centre. He has purposely moved to the left with the help of Quebecois based politicians with a strong dislike for Alberta, with the help of the most hated PM in Canadian history Brian Mulroney, and with the help of the Gay and Lesbian and Pro Abortion movement.
The CPC is now controlled by leftists and.or social progressives that wish to drive Canadians to two levels The elite and the poor accompanied by a group of slaves the recent immigrants. This is the new Liberal Party of Canada which is in essence the original Conservative Party of Canada from 1867.
If the Liberal Party of Canada returned to its roots of the 1867 they would be the true conservative alternative. |
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Wlyonmackenzie
Joined: 30 Oct 2002 Total posts: 14830 Location: Knee deep in Progressivist BS Gender: Male
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Valentine wrote: | A policy convention should be held.
Some contingency plan should be worked out to adapt to the problem of a potential election. |
Well Val, I think a convention is in order....policy certainly... but more than anything the constitution has to be changed to make the leader and caucus accountable to the party/membership....that part of the constitution they will fight the rank and file grassroots like cornered rats...elitists always do.
Until we get the leader and caucus responsible to carry the policy the membership ratifies, there is no point in a policy convention...we had one..they have our ratified policy initiatives...they have the ratified party priniciples...yet they refomulate these policies in a caucus vacuum and what we see presented as final caucus policy is unrecognizable from the policy given by the membership.
I gag when Harper's spoke-thingies talk about accountability in government...he could start with getting some in his own party.
_________________
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive; those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis, In Freedom .
Celebrate Hard Likker and Handgun week here at the Shadowy GroupTM
Last edited by Wlyonmackenzie on 05/ 13/ 07 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JurisNaturalist
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Total posts: 2142 Location: Alberta Gender: Female
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| Posted: 05/ 12/ 07 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Paycheck wrote: | Connie,
Tristan has invited me to Toronto to participate in a townhall and strategy session regarding the future of the conservative movement. It would be great if you could go.
Details here:
http://www.ecpcenter.org/ignite_2007_to.php
I have a few ideas to discuss with the people who will be showing up. Part political, part activism.
On the political side, I am mulling over the idea of starting a "party within a party". Basically it would mean creating a political wing within the CPC dedicated to true conservative principles. If we can create a coalition of socons and reformers, agree on our principles and draft some policy, and then elect a leader, we can start to move the CPC to the right. This organization itself would be a hybrid of both card carrying CPC conservatives and non-CPC conservatives.
The leadership of this group would comprise of a leader and an elected council. The leader's job would be to establish consensus among the council on any related policy or strategy and then negotiate with the hierarchy of the CPC, and propose or oppose legislation that we consider to be critical to the survival of the CPC in Canada. If there is an issue that we see as non-negotiable, then the CPC will be forced to bend or lose support. We might not be able to get them to adopt our policies outright, but then again, we could act as a Veto over their secret machinations. They will have to deal with us or face the consequences.
Where there is unity, there is power.
What do you think? |
With all due respect Paycheck, I think you're dreaming in technicolour if you really believe the CPC will let you run another political party from within. It's just not going to happen.
I like the idea of a Western Bloc. We could just take back our MP's, from Manitoba to BC, and form a coalition with the CPC, pulling our support when they slide too far to the left.
Okay - thought it through - changed my mind. I don't want all the MPs back, especially not some from BC.  |
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