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 OCJoined: 16 Jan 2004 Total posts: 2476 Gender: Male
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 Posted: 11/ 17/ 05 4:33 pm Post subject: Sex, Love and Contraception |
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Dronebuster and myself were getting off topic in the pro-life conference thread, so I'll continue here.
| dronebuster wrote: | | Well, that kind of says it all. Our definition of "love" is completely at odds |
I would agree with that. Care to share your defintion?
| Quote: | | And yet it seeks to contradict our own human nature and physiology and subvert the created order. Even animals don't do that. |
What is it that contradicts human nature and subverts the created order?
| Quote: | | And selfishness does not stop as it seeks to gratify itself on any object that does the trick. So whether it is a woman, a man, an animal, or an inanimate object, there should be no problem.... |
Selfishness is rational self-interest. It isn't rational or in your self-interest to have sex with animals, not if mental health is a value to you. |
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Kate Shaw
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Total posts: 21992 Location: Toronto Age: 62 Gender: Female
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| Posted: 11/ 17/ 05 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Back in the days when we were trying to discourage people from having gratuitous sex with random people (you may be too young to remember this), I recall a comment made by Dear Abby that has stuck with me and that I have found quite useful in many situations.
A young girl asked her "What about when my boyfriend says how can it be wrong when it feels so right?"
Abby replied, "What he really means is how can it be wrong when it feels so natural?"
Hitting your sister over the head with a board when she takes your favourite sweater without asking, and ruins it, 'feels so natural' too but you have been taught that giving in to that very strong, natural feeling would be wrong.
You can probably think of other strong feelings and impulses that 'feel so natural' and that you know you must not give in to. Many of those have been expressed here (on a thread about castrating some thieves, for example.)
The fact that an impulse is strong and natural, even if you think it might be fun, is not reason enough to give in to it. |
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| OC Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Total posts: 2476 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 11/ 17/ 05 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Kate Shaw wrote: | | The fact that an impulse is strong and natural, even if you think it might be fun, is not reason enough to give in to it. |
Right. That is the difference between Hedonism (personal subjectivism) and Egoism (rational self-interest) which many people confuse.
"Selfishness means doing whatever you feel like!"
Umm...no. Selfishness means doing things in your own self-interest. Having sex with 5 strangers in a week without protection isn't in your own self-interest.
Hedonism is actually unselfish. Action guided by sheer desire is guaranteed to work against your life and is thus not in your self-interest. |
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Dronebuster
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| Posted: 11/ 17/ 05 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Sex, Love and Contraception |
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| OntCapitalist wrote: | Dronebuster and myself were getting off topic in the pro-life conference thread, so I'll continue here.
| dronebuster wrote: | | Well, that kind of says it all. Our definition of "love" is completely at odds |
I would agree with that. Care to share your defintion? |
The Cross. Love only counts when it involves authentic sacrifice. It means a total self gift to the other person in what ever action you are engaging in. Love is also married to the truth. If love is not in the truth or truth is not in love, then the resulting virtue is distorted and less than what is should be. In the case of contraception, the truth is not respected because the act is a lie with our bodies, and does not respect what sex reveals about us as human beings. Sex involves pleasure, unity, and procreation. That is what our human body tells us it should be. And that is the objective standard by which we should judge it.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And yet it seeks to contradict our own human nature and physiology and subvert the created order. Even animals don't do that. |
What is it that contradicts human nature and subverts the created order? |
It subverts the created order by distorting and altering what the natural sex act does. Nature says sex should be open to procreation. And since nature is part of the created order, anything which subverts nature, subverts the created order.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And selfishness does not stop as it seeks to gratify itself on any object that does the trick. So whether it is a woman, a man, an animal, or an inanimate object, there should be no problem.... |
It isn't rational or in your self-interest to have sex with animals, not if mental health is a value to you. |
It isn't "rational" to have gay sex either, but that hasn't stopped our society from codifying it in law. How is a penis going up another man's anus fundamentally different from it going up a dog's?
It isn't.
What objective basis do you have for being so animophobic anyhow? I mean come on! There are people who love their pets and if they want to really get to know them better on a more intimate level, who are you to judge them? 
There is only one serious difference between bestiality, masturbation, and contraception on the one hand, and natural sex on the other. And that is the openness to human life.
_________________
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| OC Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Total posts: 2476 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 11/ 17/ 05 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Cross. Love only counts when it involves authentic sacrifice. |
To sacrifice, means to surrender a greater value for a lesser one.
Love is a rational response; an emotion one feels to another for the postiive qualities and shared values that the other has.
So if love is a sacrifice, this can only mean that one can only love someone with values and qualities that the one showing the love does not value!?
If love is sacrifice then it must be a painful emotion to feel considering that you have to constantly surrender your values in order to feel the emotion.
Strange.
| Quote: | | Love is also married to the truth |
That I agree with, but probably for different reasons. Truth is a recognition of reality. And Love--being an emotion--is a product of understanding that reality. The emotion of love is experienced when one responds to a preconceived value judgment. All emotions are direct responses to previous value judgments.
| Quote: | | In the case of contraception, the truth is not respected because the act is a lie with our bodies, and does not respect what sex reveals about us as human beings. Sex involves pleasure, unity, and procreation. |
Textbook religious view of sex. Mind/body dichotomy in full view.
Yes it is true, that metaphysically men and women can have sex and procreate. But this doesn't mean that is the only reason we should have sex. You are ignoring the human capacity of reason; separating the mind from the body. Man has the power of choice with what to do with his body. Your view of sex is purely animalistic. You are suggesting that because the truth is that men and women can procreate, therfore any interference with that procreation is wrong. Well, you are wrong for ignoring the nature of man as a rational being.
| Quote: | | That is what our human body tells us it should be. |
But what does our human minds tell us we can do? The view that one should let procreation be the inevitable result of our sexual actions, is the natural fate of animals, not of man.
| Quote: | | And that is the objective standard by which we should judge it. |
I prefer to let my mind be the standard by which I judge my sexual actions, not my body. But every zoophilist would probably agree with your position.
| Quote: | It subverts the created order by distorting and altering what the natural sex act does. Nature says sex should be open to procreation. And since nature is part of the created order, anything which subverts nature, subverts the created order.
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Nature also says that man has the capacity to reason and that man isn't a helpless slave to the physcial functions or sexual impulses of his body. With the power of reason comes the understanding of how to enhance one's physical sexual relationship with another without having to create an endless stream of children to care for.
| Quote: | | It isn't "rational" to have gay sex either, but that hasn't stopped our society from codifying it in law. |
If may not be rational to you because you aren't gay.
| Quote: | | How is a penis going up another man's anus fundamentally different from it going up a dog's? |
Just as a penis going up a women's anus is fundamentally different from going up a dog's. 
| Quote: | | What objective basis do you have for being so animophobic anyhow? I mean come on! There are people who love their pets and if they want to really get to know them better on a more intimate level, who are you to judge them? |
I would judge someone who has sex with animals as being a deranged fool. But you equating a man with a dog tells me all I have to know about you.
| Quote: | | There is only one serious difference between bestiality, masturbation, and contraception on the one hand, and natural sex on the other. And that is the openness to human life |
Haha! What the hell is that supposed to mean? Equating beastiality with masturbation and contraception?? Are you for real? |
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| Hailey Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Total posts: 19655 Location: Edmonton Gender: Female
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| Posted: 11/ 17/ 05 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Cross. Love only counts when it involves authentic sacrifice. It means a total self gift to the other person in what ever action you are engaging in. Love is also married to the truth. If love is not in the truth or truth is not in love, then the resulting virtue is distorted and less than what is should be. In the case of contraception, the truth is not respected because the act is a lie with our bodies, and does not respect what sex reveals about us as human beings. Sex involves pleasure, unity, and procreation. That is what our human body tells us it should be. And that is the objective standard by which we should judge it.
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I think that we should always draw upon the cross as the absolute most powerful example of sacrificial love.
I am against birth control but I, respectfully, disagree with your decision-making points Dronebuster. I don't think that being open and accepting to the gift of a child is a sacrifice - I think it's accepting the wholeness of the person that you are making love to. You are accepting them from their head to their toes - including their fertility.
| Quote: | It isn't "rational" to have gay sex either, but that hasn't stopped our society from codifying it in law. How is a penis going up another man's anus fundamentally different from it going up a dog's?
It isn't |
It would not be natural for me to be in a same-sex relationship because it would distort my sense of what a relationship looks like.
I'm not sure that I'd want to compare it with relations with animals though - well actually, I am quite sure - I just wouldn't.
There is also a key difference here around consent.
| Quote: | There is only one serious difference between bestiality, masturbation, and contraception on the one hand, and natural sex on the other. And that is the openness to human life.
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And I thought I had strong opinions on birth control!
May I challenge that statement though Dronebuster?
Just in terms of consistency ...I am sure that you would disfellowship someone who was having relations with their dog...and you've publicly said that you do not think that same-sex marriage should be legal...that's pretty strong censure. Would you remove people who masturbated or used birth control from your social and family circle in the way as you would someone who was spending romantic evenings with Fido? |
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Dronebuster
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| OntCapitalist wrote: | | To sacrifice, means to surrender a greater value for a lesser one. |
Correct. And that is an essential, and most important aspect of love. Because that sacrificial act completely empties any selfish motives someone might have. That is the essence of love: willing the good of the other at all costs. Everything is measured against this standard. That is why Christian love is the most exact and rich expression of "love".
| Quote: | | Love is a rational response; an emotion one feels to another for the postiive qualities and shared values that the other has. |
Indeed, love involves a rational response. This is true because loving is ultimately in the will, not principally in the pleasurable emotions that come from it. That is why Jesus' death on the cross, a martyr for the faith, or a soldier who dies on the battlefield are not getting a hit from an orgasm. Rather they are shedding their blood for a greater good because of their fierce love of the "other". That is why if Canada were ever to go to war, we would be finished as we have no idea of what sacrifice is because we have no idea of what love really is. This is why France, Canada, and much of the Western world hate Christianity because it is ultimately an expression of authentic love, demonstrated by sacrifice.
| Quote: | | So if love is a sacrifice, this can only mean that one can only love someone with values and qualities that the one showing the love does not value!? |
As Jesus said: "And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.(Luke 6:34-36)
In other words, loving someone who loves you is good and noble, but not exactly meritorious. Besides, the very notion of a marriage is sacrifice and compromise as you can't always get what you want.
| Quote: | | If love is sacrifice then it must be a painful emotion to feel considering that you have to constantly surrender your values in order to feel the emotion. |
No. That is not an accurate statement. If you mean by "your values", your own self-pleasure and self-interest, that would be correct. But if your values are for the betterment of the "other", there is not necessarily a "painful emotion" but a liberation.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Love is also married to the truth |
That I agree with, but probably for different reasons. Truth is a recognition of reality. And Love--being an emotion--is a product of understanding that reality. The emotion of love is experienced when one responds to a preconceived value judgment. All emotions are direct responses to previous value judgments. |
Love is more than an emotion. Emotions come and go. Maybe that explains why marriages today come and go. Real love means perseverance to the end. Think of the vets on the battlefield fighting for their loved ones. What motivated them to risk so much?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | In the case of contraception, the truth is not respected because the act is a lie with our bodies, and does not respect what sex reveals about us as human beings. Sex involves pleasure, unity, and procreation. |
Textbook religious view of sex. Mind/body dichotomy in full view. |
Sorry, Pal. You are talking to a Catholic, not a 2nd Century Gnost or a 16th Century Reformer. We wrote the book on maintaining the balance between body, soul, spirit, and mind.
| Quote: | | Yes it is true, that metaphysically men and women can have sex and procreate. But this doesn't mean that is the only reason we should have sex. |
Correct, but it doesn't mean that you should have the moral authority to usurp the natural laws governing the bodies of men and women for the simple purpose of procuring an orgasm at the expense of creation either. The Catholic view is simply to respect the act as it is without frustrating one immanent aspect of it.
| Quote: | | You are ignoring the human capacity of reason; separating the mind from the body. |
Baloney. I simply disagree with your reasoning, or lack thereof. Because I come to a different conclusion in this matter hardly means that I am not using my mental faculties. Please do not equate your opinions exclusively with the capacity to reason. It is rather humorous if not slightly arrogant.
| Quote: | | Man has the power of choice with what to do with his body. |
No one is disputing that. But the MORAL choice he makes is quite a different question. And to be moral, he cannot contradict God's laws as revealed in His natural law.
| Quote: | | Your view of sex is purely animalistic. |
You mean like beastiality? 
I am sorry but you are very mistaken. First of all, animals don't contracept. When the animal kingdom starts to look more moral, and more cognizant of the natural laws that govern them than humans, it just goes to show how low we have sunk, does isn't it? Secondly, respecting what the human body is and what it does hardly makes me an animal. I merely acknowledge that the body has intrinsic dignity in all of its functions, especially the one that is responsible for the transmission of human life. If I choose not to have children then I will exhibit some self control over my passions, and not be driven by them like...er...some animals I know. That's what differentiates a man from an animal. He actually can use his mind to control his baser inclinations. At least, that is what it use to be like. Today, of course, all that has changed. If Slick has to choose between a cold shower and some sacrifice on the one hand and a condom on the other, guess which one wins?
| Quote: | | You are suggesting that because the truth is that men and women can procreate, therfore any interference with that procreation is wrong. Well, you are wrong for ignoring the nature of man as a rational being. |
Uh huh. And why is it that you necessarily equate being rational with contraception? The fact that you choose one path doesn't mean the one who chooses the other is any less rational. It just means that one reasoned correctly and the other did not.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | That is what our human body tells us it should be. |
But what does our human minds tell us we can do? The view that one should let procreation be the inevitable result of our sexual actions, is the natural fate of animals, not of man. |
It was the natural fate of man for 1930 years. And we were no less intelligent than we are today. In fact, quite the opposite. Do you think contraception was just invented in the twentieth century? Have you never read the Good Book: "There is nothing new under the sun".
For the record, asking what your mind tells you to do solves nothing if your mind is not properly formed and in harmony with your own body. In fact, the problem is not with your mind
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And that is the objective standard by which we should judge it. |
I prefer to let my mind be the standard by which I judge my sexual actions, not my body. But every zoophilist would probably agree with your position. |
If your mind is the standard, then let it comprehend what your body says about the contraceptive act. Let there be harmony between the two instead of this gnostic dichotomy that you unwittingly hold.
| Quote: | | Quote: | It subverts the created order by distorting and altering what the natural sex act does. Nature says sex should be open to procreation. And since nature is part of the created order, anything which subverts nature, subverts the created order.
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Nature also says that man has the capacity to reason and that man isn't a helpless slave to the physcial functions or sexual impulses of his body. With the power of reason comes the understanding of how to enhance one's physical sexual relationship with another without having to create an endless stream of children to care for. |
Man has the capacity to choose how many children he wants to have. There are times of relative infertility for a woman. The only thing that nature demands is that you conform your sexual appetites to the dignity of your body.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | It isn't "rational" to have gay sex either, but that hasn't stopped our society from codifying it in law. |
If may not be rational to you because you aren't gay. |
I see. So you have to be gay to understand reason. How very pedastrian.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | How is a penis going up another man's anus fundamentally different from it going up a dog's? |
Just as a penis going up a women's anus is fundamentally different from going up a dog's. |
Right. There is no difference. I am glad we are agreed.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | What objective basis do you have for being so animophobic anyhow? I mean come on! There are people who love their pets and if they want to really get to know them better on a more intimate level, who are you to judge them? |
I would judge someone who has sex with animals as being a deranged fool. But you equating a man with a dog tells me all I have to know about you. |
That I can tell the difference between contraceptive sex and natural sex?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | There is only one serious difference between bestiality, masturbation, and contraception on the one hand, and natural sex on the other. And that is the openness to human life |
Haha! What the hell is that supposed to mean? Equating beastiality with masturbation and contraception?? Are you for real? |
Yes, I am for real and yes they are equal in one fundamental respect. They all involve contraceptive sex. Would you care to challenge this point? Please go ahead. Our audience is waiting.
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Dronebuster
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Hailey wrote: | | I think that we should always draw upon the cross as the absolute most powerful example of sacrificial love. |
Love ALWAYS has a sacrificial element in it, Hailey. If it doesn't, then it's not love but a lie masqerading as a love. People today confuse love with lust. Big difference for a Christian.
| Quote: | | I am against birth control but I, respectfully, disagree with your decision-making points Dronebuster. I don't think that being open and accepting to the gift of a child is a sacrifice - I think it's accepting the wholeness of the person that you are making love to. You are accepting them from their head to their toes - including their fertility. |
With all due respect, Hailey, this does not make too much sense. Bringing a child into this world invariably means sacrifice, from the moment you start throwing up in the toilet because of morning sickness, to the labor pains, to the birth itself, to all of the heartaches that come from watching them grow up and then eventually leave home.
If you don't think so, why do you think people don't want many of them these days? It's because children crash their good times and parties. Children are indeed a blessing, but even blessings are hard work some times. 
| Quote: | | It would not be natural for me to be in a same-sex relationship because it would distort my sense of what a relationship looks like. I'm not sure that I'd want to compare it with relations with animals though - well actually, I am quite sure - I just wouldn't. |
That's fine. It is not the same, obviously. In fact, the comparison does not make any real sense EXCEPT in one fundamental respect and that is in the area of contraceptive sex. That is all that I was trying to get at.
| Quote: | | There is also a key difference here around consent. |
Very true. Poor dog.
| Quote: | | Quote: | There is only one serious difference between bestiality, masturbation, and contraception on the one hand, and natural sex on the other. And that is the openness to human life.
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And I thought I had strong opinions on birth control!
May I challenge that statement though Dronebuster? |
Go ahead. 
| Quote: | | Just in terms of consistency ...I am sure that you would disfellowship someone who was having relations with their dog...and you've publicly said that you do not think that same-sex marriage should be legal...that's pretty strong censure. Would you remove people who masturbated or used birth control from your social and family circle in the way as you would someone who was spending romantic evenings with Fido? |
Well, Hailey, I am sorry that I have given you (and others) the wrong impression. I cavort with all sorts of people. Gays, Masturbators, Fornicators, and the run-o-the mill Contraceptors. These are all people who have intrinsic dignity and are worth something. Why the hell would I be spending all this time arguing with them if I didn't give a damn about them? I could just be like Paul Martin who personally abhors gay sex, knows its wrong, but prefers to use them and their political mileage to get elected, yet all the while not give a flying fart about what this will do to their health or their spirit...or worse where they may spend eternity.
The gay politcal machine will persecute me with the State's laws even though I care enough about these people to suffer for them (and the truth) via various forms of persecution. On the other hand, my opponents will think guys like Paul Martin are just swell for giving them what they want while he personally abhors what they do - all to just get elected. The political arrangement between Liberal Party and the gay agenda is like contraception: just use me baby so I can get my hit.
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Dronebuster
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would surely hope that he doesn't feel his views should be entrenched in law. |
Funny, until your hero Pierre Trudeau decriminalized them in 1968, contraception, homosexuality, and abortion were crimes. Funny how they were all together in his sweeping Omnibus Bill, huh?
My views are in the extreme minority, obviously, so they would never see the light of day in this current culture. But this culture will not last indefinitely. That's when I come in 
In fact, we are already smelling the stench of death all around us. And when your side checks out, my side will check in. Demographics says my views will succeed me. Can you say the same? I thought not. 
And guess what my kids (who will out number yours by a factor of 3:1) are likely to think about the law?
You're as clueless as the French or the Administration of McGill University who think they will be able to sustain a secular culture in the ocean of a exponentially growing population of Muslims. Once you learn how to count, you will understand that your laws are only as solid as your ability to propagate them. And let me tell you something, bub, the future generations of Christians and Muslims and whatever else won't be as prone to the debauchery and barbarity of secularism as previous generations have been. Your side will be a sad little footnote in history. No children = no future.
| Quote: | | You asked earlier in your post "Why, if we are talking about equivalencies, hasn't their been the same enthusiastic anti-birth control crusade?" Because if there was, the pro-life movement would be dead and pro-lifers know it. |
Do we? With all due respect to the faithful Evangelicals, the numbers the pro-life front are with faithful, orthodox Catholics. Sooner or later, this issue will have to be addressed if the movement wants any real success in the long run. Abortion is not where the battle is at. It is a consequence of contraception, which in turn is a crisis of faith.
| Quote: | | It is one thing to advocate a reduction in abortions, and it's another to want to criminalize abortion, but it is truly deranged to want to criminalize contraceptives. |
Yes, Canada was a deranged place before the Pill and Pierre Elliot Trudeau and 1968.
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Free Slave
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Total posts: 942 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| OntCapitalist wrote: | | I would surely hope that he doesn't feel his views should be entrenched in law. You asked earlier in your post "Why, if we are talking about equivalencies, hasn't their been the same enthusiastic anti-birth control crusade?" Because if there was, the pro-life movement would be dead and pro-lifers know it. |
Actually the reason is because birth control and abortion are not equivalent. The former is the turning of a life-giving gift that unifies a family into a selfish pleasure, the latter is the ripping apart of a defenceless child. Both bad, but clearly not the same.
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | Only an anti-life mentality would demean something, such as contraception, that helps promote a healthy, joyous, rewarding sex life with someone you love. |
I believe you meant to say only a pro-life anti-'pleasure above life' mentality. Understandable typo.
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | Yes, to believe that sex should be reduced to procreation and not something to be celebrated is anti-life. |
Sticking a piece of plastic between your sex-organs to achieve the pleasure associated with sex while negating the function is anti-life my friend, and what gives you the idea that moral people don't think sex is something to be celebrated?
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | Dronebuster wrote: | | How is a penis going up another man's anus fundamentally different from it going up a dog's? |
Just as a penis going up a women's anus is fundamentally different from going up a dog's. |
Right. In no way at all.
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | Dronebuster wrote: | | There is only one serious difference between bestiality, masturbation, and contraception on the one hand, and natural sex on the other. And that is the openness to human life |
Haha! What the hell is that supposed to mean? Equating beastiality with masturbation and contraception?? Are you for real? |
They are all an unnatural warping of a clearly and intrinsically defined act, and the warping in question happens to be anti-life. |
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| Hailey Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Total posts: 19655 Location: Edmonton Gender: Female
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Man has the capacity to choose how many children he wants to have. There are times of relative infertility for a woman. The only thing that nature demands is that you conform your sexual appetites to the dignity of your body |
I think that those decisions rest with God.
I also believe that even for those who believe in NFP they are encouraged not to use it with a contraceptive mentality but to use NFP only for child-spacing after much prayer and deliberation. The person that has two children and only two children for social reasons or self-centered reasons is that more admirable than the contracepting couple that has four?
| Quote: | | With all due respect, Hailey, this does not make too much sense. Bringing a child into this world invariably means sacrifice, from the moment you start throwing up in the toilet because of morning sickness, to the labor pains, to the birth itself, to all of the heartaches that come from watching them grow up and then eventually leave home. |
I think in a face to face discussion we'd find that we were using different terms to convey the same things.
I acknowledge children are hardwork and I acknowledge that morning sickness, labor pains, and childbirth are difficult things. I guess it's not the first thing I think of when I think of them so the sacrifice component is far overshadowed.
They really have blessed me and all that other stuff just seems part of life now.
| Quote: | These are all people who have intrinsic dignity and are worth something. Why the hell would I be spending all this time arguing with them if I didn't give a darn about them? I could just be like Paul Martin who personally abhors gay sex, knows its wrong, but prefers to use them and their political mileage to get elected, yet all the while not give a flying fart about what this will do to their health or their spirit...or worse where they may spend eternity.
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Yes, everyone is a child of God and has worth even during times of disagreement.
I also appreciate that your purpose in arguing isn't to devalue anyone or to leave them feeling that way.
I wasn't aware that Paul Martin felt that way - not saying you are wrong - just unaware.
I would never suggest you don't love everyone or want them to join Jesus in heaven but one of the greatest measure of our successes, I think, is whether or not people feel loved.
Do you think that most gay people feel loved? ministered to? or hated? I think they feel hated.
If at the end of my marriage I think I conveyed love to my husband and he doesn't then I have failed in my marriage. I think that we, collectively, as Christians have failed greatly when people tell us they feel hated by us.
It's really sad. |
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Free Slave
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Total posts: 942 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| leewgrant wrote: | | You are entitled to your opinion, of course. My wife and I would rather experience "total love" without fear of pregnancy. |
Yes, people often would rather experience physical gratification without the fear of responsibility and let their desire cloud their judgement.
| leewgrant wrote: | | Vek wrote: | So death is the alternative?
If death is the alternative, maybe people should consider what they would think if death was forced upon them in the case of pregnancy? They seem to think that it's fine to force it on another. |
That's why we practice birth control. We want to avoid pregnancy. |
That ignores the question of abortion posed. |
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Free Slave
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Total posts: 942 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| OntCapitalist wrote: | | To sacrifice, means to surrender a greater value for a lesser one. |
Actually sacrifice in relationships means to surrender something for yourself so that someone else can gain.
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | Love is a rational response; an emotion one feels to another for the postiive qualities and shared values that the other has. |
Love is not an emotion, love is the rational choice to live for others.
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | So if love is a sacrifice, this can only mean that one can only love someone with values and qualities that the one showing the love does not value!? |
One can love anyone one wishes, since love is independent of emotion, if one can bring oneself to deny oneself and live for the other.
| OntCapitalist wrote: | | If love is sacrifice then it must be a painful emotion to feel considering that you have to constantly surrender your values in order to feel the emotion. |
Love is not an emotion. You have to surrender yourself, which ironically gives you true happiness, but you certainly don't have to surrender your values, unless your values are self. |
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Dronebuster
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sticking a piece of plastic between your sex-organs to achieve the pleasure associated with sex while negating the function is anti-life my friend... |
Good one, FS. Yes, Trojan condoms - such a liberating and natural way to express your love.
_________________
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Dronebuster
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| Posted: 11/ 18/ 05 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Hailey wrote: | | I also believe that even for those who believe in NFP they are encouraged not to use it with a contraceptive mentality but to use NFP only for child-spacing after much prayer and deliberation. |
This is what the Church teaches. The reason must be grave. The Church is not in the habit of micromanaging this aspect of our relationships - about what is serious and what is not. It only gives general principles. Contraceptive sex is ALWAYS a grave sin. Natural Sex can also be a grave sin if it is used in such a way to indefinitely postpone children for no good reason.
| Quote: | | The person that has two children and only two children for social reasons or self-centered reasons is that more admirable than the contracepting couple that has four? |
This is not a numbers game, Hailey. The key here is simply for the couple to be open to children in their heart and their minds. There may be very serious health or social reasons why a couple may want to limit the size of their family, even though they ultimately allow God to determine it. They will ultimately be accountable to God for their decisions. He will know if they were holding back for frivilous reasons, even if they were using NFP. On the other hand, the contracepting couple, even if they had 8 kids (very unlikely) but possible with permanent sterilization later on in life, would have made a decision against God and the created order. They would have made a concerted decision to say "no" to God in the marital embrace for a period of time.
That's a no-no.  The key is to always BE OPEN TO LIFE. That's where the rubber hits the road
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I acknowledge children are hardwork and I acknowledge that morning sickness, labor pains, and childbirth are difficult things. I guess it's not the first thing I think of when I think of them so the sacrifice component is far overshadowed. They really have blessed me and all that other stuff just seems part of life now. |
Of course, but your joy overshadows the sacrifice that is still present. If only our culture would let the joy come in instead of just thinking of the sacrifice required, we would all be better off.
| Quote: | | Do you think that most gay people feel loved? ministered to? or hated? I think they feel hated. |
Yes, I think they do feel hated. But I think a lot of that comes from the disordered sex acts that they perform. Their consciences convict them. No law or silencing of us will ever change that. Depression and self-loathing will always be there. Very sad. We must pray for these people as they are, in many respects, a mere product of our contraceptive culture. In a real way, they are victims. And that is why we owe them the truth that the problem is not with gay sex per se, but with contraception....and faith.
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