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 Jason Kauppinen
Joined: 26 Dec 2001 Total posts: 12100 Location: Kingston, Ontario Age: 33 Gender: Male
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 Posted: 09/ 27/ 04 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It puts more faith in process than specific outcomes |
What an utterly moronic statement.
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Warren Kinsella is the Jar Jar Binks of Canadian Politics
1985 (OPC Minority)/1987 (Loss) /2003 (Loss)/2007 (Loss) --The OPC Red Tory record.
"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn |
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Little Big Man
Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| gimbol wrote: | To all:
If that part of the parties membership feel its views are not reflected by the current leadership choice leave the party, you can be assured those principles will leave the party as well. |
Given the way the PC party is structured, if a party member's views are not reflected by the current leadership choice, then those principles have already left the party. The PC party does not make policy by referendum of the membership. The party constitution ultimately gives the party leader the power to decide party policy. Members are footsoldiers who are expected to tow the party line, no matter what the leader says the party line has become. Apparently, some PC members are happy to support anything as long as it's labelled PC. How fortunate for the socialists.
| Quote: | | If you stay, those principles will be mantained as the cost of your support. |
Really? How exactly would that work? Let's see, John Tory is four-square against private health insurance, whereas the Klees supporters feel it is Ontario's only chance to survive. Do you really think the principle of choice in health care insurance "will be maintained as the cost of" the support of Klees' supporters?
Nope.
What WILL happen is that Tory, and the liberal left media, will hold a carrot out in front of the blue tories. Tory will promise (as he already has) to "study" or "revisit" or "re-consider" such things as his opposition to choice in education. The left wing press will tell blue tories that, if John Tory fails, they will then be successful in installing a blue tory leader like Klees. "Hang in there, your day is coming...in the meantime, we'll need your monthly donation, and we'll need you to deliver flyers on Saturday afternoon" will be the chant for the foreseeable future in the PC party.
Here's an interesting, and somewhat accurate, story from yesterday's newspapers:
Source: Canada Free Press
The Common Sense Revolution: 1995 - 2004
by Arthur Weinreb, Associate Editor, Canada Free Press
September 27, 2004
Ontario’s Common Sense Revolution is dead. Although it began to lose consciousness after Mike Harris won a second term in 1999 and became comatose during Ernie Eves leadership of the Ontario PCs, the revolution finally met its demise when the Conservatives elected John Tory as leader on September 18.
Tory is a moderate. "Moderate" is a polite word that is used to describe a member of a so-called conservative party who has little or no conservative principles and takes positions that are just ever so slightly to the right of those taken by liberals. And when you have a Liberal Party leader such as Dalton McGuinty who is not exactly in the far left of his party, there is now no appreciable difference between Ontario’s two major political parties.
John Tory is a throwback to the days of his mentor, Bill Davis. But since Davis was last re-elected we have had a taste of real conservatism. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher completed their terms. Newt Gingrich’s Contract with America has come and gone and George W. Bush was elected president. And in Ontario, despite all of the opposition and the occasional violent protest, Mike Harris did manage to form back to back majority governments. If Harris made any major mistakes, it was move to fast when the populace was used to governments making incremental changes. But Harris and his Common Sense Revolution brought real conservative government to the people of Ontario.
The biggest problem with John Tory leading the PCs is not that he will probably lose the next election, but that he will probably win it. Tory just has to find the centre and convince the voters that he is more honest than Dalton McGuinty, a task that seems too simple to fail. McGuinty, of course has continually lied about most major election promises that he made. And the promises that he kept, such as buying back MRI machines, weren’t worth keeping.
With a province being led by Premier John Tory, any vestige of true conservatism in Ontario will be gone for years. Oh sure, during the leadership Tory threw a couple of bones to the real conservatives in his party, like his promise to ban anyone who defrauds social services from collecting benefits "for life". That’s not a conservative principle--that’s just plain mean. In a country where a life sentence imposed upon the most brutal of murderers doesn’t necessarily mean life, depriving a 65-year-old woman of benefits because she defrauded the system as a single mother in her 20s is nothing more than pure posturing.
There is no doubt that the Tories would be facing problems in the next election had Jim Flaherty or Frank Klees, the two other leadership candidates, ended up at the helm of the Ontario PCs. But both would have gone back to the Common Sense Revolution that brought Mike Harris two consecutive majority governments. And a Frank Klees-led party would have been interesting because of his favouring two-tiered medicine. Martin and McGuinty rail against any aspects of privatization in health care, even though current private medical facilities are perfectly legal. It would be nice to have at least one leader of a major political party in this country who did not act as an enabler to all the misinformation that is spewed about Canada’s healthcare system.
The right in Ontario could learn a lot from the left. The NDP has to be admired for sticking to their core beliefs and if they can’t win power that way, they are content to remain in opposition or as a third or fourth party. The Ontario Progressive Conservative Party is right back to where it was before Harris was first elected in 1995--back in the mushy middle to gain power for the sake of gaining power.
The Common Sense Revolution--R.I.P.
Arthur Weinreb is an author, columnist and Associate Editor of Canada Free Press. His work as appeared on Newsmax.com, Men's News Daily, the Drudge Report, Foxnews.com and The Rant. He can be reached at cfp@canadafreepress.com
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Faith Hope and Love
Location: Canada Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The Common Sense Revolution: 1995 - 2004
by Arthur Weinreb, Associate Editor, Canada Free Press
September 27, 2004
--snip--
Tory is a moderate. "Moderate" is a polite word that is used to describe a member of a so-called conservative party who has little or no conservative principles and takes positions that are just ever so slightly to the right of those taken by liberals. And when you have a Liberal Party leader such as Dalton McGuinty who is not exactly in the far left of his party, there is now no appreciable difference between Ontario’s two major political parties.
--snip--
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IMO, Arthur has hit the nail dead on. During the debate in Sudbury, I listened carefully to each of the 3 ON PC leadership candidates discussing their preferred methodology for determining public policy and was totally disgusted with John Tory's "fence-sitter" response.
Tory rambled on something to this effect: "... consult "studies", take a close look at "reports" and ...go with the science...! 
As I see it, this methodology for determining public policies and political "direction" is one of the primary reasons we're faced with so much divisiveness, hatred and tyranny today. Why would we want to see even more of the same? 
IMO, Tory's publicly-stated preferred methodology for determining public policy would continue to force taxpayers to fund lefty lobby groups, bureaucratic bodies of tyrants, lobbyist-commissioned marketing strategists and "Junk Scientists"  ie: epidemiology and relative risk "experts" and researchers. 
I'll not see one dime or minute of my precious money or time support this type of socialist "direction".
_________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedon, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, amd may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
~Samuel Adams, Speech at the Philadelphia State House - August 1, 1776 |
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RedDog
Location: High Plains Gender: Male
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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"Ontarians" and "principles" in the same sentence? Is there another Ontario outside of Canada I don't know about besides the one in Orange County, California?
Central Canadian voters in general have sold their souls to passing gladhanders with the highest bid (usually Quebec Liberals) offering up the most juicy goodies (usually extorted from others) for over 135 years.
Principles? Good Lord. Ontario voters are bought and sold like cheap cuts of meat on the block. |
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| LondonLady Joined: 28 Feb 2002 Total posts: 21506 Location: London Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Little Big Man wrote: | | LondonLady wrote: | | One of them, whom I know passing well, ran in our riding the federal election prior to this one. |
Not for Freedom Party. Freedom Party of Canada's billing the next federal election as their first. |
Let me clarify. He was a former Freedom Party member who ran for the CA. To my knowledge, he still held most of his libertarian views with regard to social issues like abortion, he stated that he was unsure whether or not Robin Sharpe's work might have "artistic merit", etc. |
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JOE HUEGLIN
Joined: 12 May 2002 Total posts: 3781 Location: NIAGARA FALLS, ONTARIO Gender: Male
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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"Ontarians" and "principles" in the same sentence? Is there another Ontario outside of Canada I don't know about besides the one in Orange County, California?
Central Canadian voters in general have sold their souls to passing gladhanders with the highest bid (usually Quebec Liberals) offering up the most juicy goodies (usually extorted from others) for over 135 years.
Principles? Good Lord. Ontario voters are bought and sold like cheap cuts of meat on the block.
=====
Contradictions in your diatribe: Can't reasonably say the most juicy goodies and sold like cheap cuts of neat at same time. |
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Cod Father
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Total posts: 1870 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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and who gave you the power to decide what is and isn't conservative?
what is an isn't conservative will ebb and flow and change over time. Who knows! Maybe in the future the conservatives will be the left and the NDP will be the right.
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Cod Father
Maritime and Newfoundland Ambassador to the Shadowy Group TM |
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JOE HUEGLIN
Joined: 12 May 2002 Total posts: 3781 Location: NIAGARA FALLS, ONTARIO Gender: Male
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Cod Father,
You may be correct.
The left is what wants change to what has not been.
The right wants it to what was.
There never was in Canada limited government involvement so the right becomes the left, and, social programmes have been cut back and the left wants them restored. so the left is the right. Right? |
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Little Big Man
Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 28/ 04 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Cod Father wrote: | and who gave you the power to decide what is and isn't conservative?
what is an isn't conservative will ebb and flow and change over time. Who knows! Maybe in the future the conservatives will be the left and the NDP will be the right. |
Or maybe...in the present.
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Faith Hope and Love
Location: Canada Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 29/ 04 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Cod Father wrote: | | and who gave you the power to decide what is and isn't conservative? |
I think it was likely the same "entity" who granted themselves the power to determine everything that is "right" or "wrong" for everyone other than themselves and then supported the persecution of those who differ in their own definitions. ie: Those who governments have empowered to replace God as the Judge of themselves and their fellow humans. Maybe the Devil IS Definitions?
| Cod Father wrote: | | what is an isn't conservative will ebb and flow and change over time. Who knows! Maybe in the future the conservatives will be the left and the NDP will be the right. |
Are you saying that "A Rose by any other name is still a Rose" and that "Birds of a Feather fly together"? If so, I agree that names (and "labels") mean nothing. This ongoing game of names and labels causes everyone confusion, political divisions and is precisely why the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party now stands for nothing that voters and supporters can identify with in 25 words or less (or apply to their own philosophy consistently) and why the Conservative Party of Canada may head in the same direction.
Without consistently applying a simple and identifiable principle to all policies and "direction", people and political parties flounder. "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything" still rings true. When you combine this adage with "be careful what you ask for 'cuz you just might get it", this pretty much sums up Ontario's (and Canada's?) political scenario, IMO.
History shows that human beings will always fight for Freedom (after they finally realize they've lost it and the fight necessitates violence  ). Most adults know that unrestricted government power always results in violence. The only way I know of to restrict government is through constitutionally guaranteeing this restriction through primary respect for the individual rather than primarily "society as a whole".
I believe that Individual Responsibility and Freedom are being incrementally and legislatively removed from Canadian citizens by governmental and bureaucratic regulation, at all levels of government and increasingly so. I believe if all who do not value their freedom first and foremost do not stand firm in their demands to have their Freedoms respected NOW, we will see violence erupt in the very near future. We ALL need to STOP demanding that our government legislate "war" against ANY of our peaceful citizens, for the "good of our society as a whole"! We MUST right now, wake up to the fact that Individual Responsibility and Rights and Free Enterprise principles are inseparably related and are to be found and respected ONLY in the world's "Free" societies.
Unfortunately - whether I agree with some particular "stands" or not, I also believe that anyone who wants Freedom as it suits their particular preferences but not Freedom for every other peaceful, non-malicious citizen, is displaying far too much of a double standard to be able to participate in any viable fight for Freedom (even their own).
I will expect anyone who values their Freedoms to value mine in return and we will both have a fighting chance to help each other. There must be many of us out there who would rather die as free citizens and would be willing to forfeit Big Brother's legislated protection of our "health, safety and welfare" to achieve this goal.
If God chose to NOT force me to "choose" what is "right", why should I allow ANY other person or government officials to do so? I see this as government trying to STEAL my God-given right to Freedom and the public's acceptance of SLAVERY. This is also a way to STEAL my responsibility and eliminate "natural" consequences and replace them with government-legislated consequences only, IMO.
Were the famous "Freedom Fighter" regiments of Scottish Highlanders known as "The Ladies from Hell" dubbed primarily as Conservatives?? WHO CARES!? They fought for FREEDOM for ALL! What would my particular political label be? WHO CARES! I think we're long overdue for a national and several provincial campaigns about FREEDOM instead of "Health"...unless we all really are willing to give up our most essential Freedoms to chase after the utopian dream of perfect health and guaranteed safety... by legislative edict!?
I consider it my civic duty, as a responsible adult, to support (but only in return for the same and on a voluntary basis) anyone or any organization that supports Individual Responsibility and Liberty in all their actions, statements and "policies" - be they or "it" of a political nature or otherwise. The "name" means little to me and I'd expect that my "label" means little to those who would want to work with me.
_________________
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedon, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, amd may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
~Samuel Adams, Speech at the Philadelphia State House - August 1, 1776 |
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Little Big Man
Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 29/ 04 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Faith Hope and Love wrote: | | Cod Father wrote: | | and who gave you the power to decide what is and isn't conservative? |
I think it was likely the same "entity" who granted themselves the power to determine everything that is "right" or "wrong" for everyone other than themselves and then supported the persecution of those who differ in their own definitions. ie: Those who governments have empowered to replace God as the Judge of themselves and their fellow humans. Maybe the Devil IS Definitions?
| Cod Father wrote: | | what is an isn't conservative will ebb and flow and change over time. Who knows! Maybe in the future the conservatives will be the left and the NDP will be the right. |
Are you saying that "A Rose by any other name is still a Rose" and that "Birds of a Feather fly together"? If so, I agree that names (and "labels") mean nothing. This ongoing game of names and labels causes everyone confusion, political divisions and is precisely why the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party now stands for nothing that voters and supporters can identify with in 25 words or less (or apply to their own philosophy consistently) and why the Conservative Party of Canada may head in the same direction.
Without consistently applying a simple and identifiable principle to all policies and "direction", people and political parties flounder. "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything" still rings true. When you combine this adage with "be careful what you ask for 'cuz you just might get it", this pretty much sums up Ontario's (and Canada's?) political scenario, IMO.
History shows that human beings will always fight for Freedom (after they finally realize they've lost it and the fight necessitates violence ). Most adults know that unrestricted government power always results in violence. The only way I know of to restrict government is through constitutionally guaranteeing this restriction through primary respect for the individual rather than primarily "society as a whole".
I believe that Individual Responsibility and Freedom are being incrementally and legislatively removed from Canadian citizens by governmental and bureaucratic regulation, at all levels of government and increasingly so. I believe if all who do not value their freedom first and foremost do not stand firm in their demands to have their Freedoms respected NOW, we will see violence erupt in the very near future. We ALL need to STOP demanding that our government legislate "war" against ANY of our peaceful citizens, for the "good of our society as a whole"! We MUST right now, wake up to the fact that Individual Responsibility and Rights and Free Enterprise principles are inseparably related and are to be found and respected ONLY in the world's "Free" societies.
Unfortunately - whether I agree with some particular "stands" or not, I also believe that anyone who wants Freedom as it suits their particular preferences but not Freedom for every other peaceful, non-malicious citizen, is displaying far too much of a double standard to be able to participate in any viable fight for Freedom (even their own).
I will expect anyone who values their Freedoms to value mine in return and we will both have a fighting chance to help each other. There must be many of us out there who would rather die as free citizens and would be willing to forfeit Big Brother's legislated protection of our "health, safety and welfare" to achieve this goal.
If God chose to NOT force me to "choose" what is "right", why should I allow ANY other person or government officials to do so? I see this as government trying to STEAL my God-given right to Freedom and the public's acceptance of SLAVERY. This is also a way to STEAL my responsibility and eliminate "natural" consequences and replace them with government-legislated consequences only, IMO.
Were the famous "Freedom Fighter" regiments of Scottish Highlanders known as "The Ladies from Hell" dubbed primarily as Conservatives?? WHO CARES!? They fought for FREEDOM for ALL! What would my particular political label be? WHO CARES! I think we're long overdue for a national and several provincial campaigns about FREEDOM instead of "Health"...unless we all really are willing to give up our most essential Freedoms to chase after the utopian dream of perfect health and guaranteed safety... by legislative edict!?
I consider it my civic duty, as a responsible adult, to support (but only in return for the same and on a voluntary basis) anyone or any organization that supports Individual Responsibility and Liberty in all their actions, statements and "policies" - be they or "it" of a political nature or otherwise. The "name" means little to me and I'd expect that my "label" means little to those who would want to work with me. |
 BRAVO!!
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RedDog
Location: High Plains Gender: Male
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| Posted: 09/ 29/ 04 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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JOE HUEGLIN - Diatribe? Where? What did I post that wasn't historically accurate or correct? Your region is famous for selling out for BJ's that my region pays for hey? Looks like I hit a touch too close to home perhaps.
Fortunately, that's your problem and not mine.
Diatribe? ppphhfffttt!!! |
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JOE HUEGLIN
Joined: 12 May 2002 Total posts: 3781 Location: NIAGARA FALLS, ONTARIO Gender: Male
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| Posted: 09/ 29/ 04 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Alberta and Ontario are the have provinces, dontcha know.
Just how do we benefit from you?
Call us cheap cuts of meat if you wish but don't say we sell out to the highest bidder at the same time. It doesn't make sense. |
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| youngtory Joined: 14 Jan 2004 Total posts: 877 Location: Gatineau, Quebec Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 09/ 30/ 04 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| JOE HUEGLIN wrote: |
so the right becomes the left, and, social programmes have been cut back and the left wants them restored. so the left is the right. Right? |
BS.
_________________
"The tired, old, corrupt Liberal party is cornered like an angry rat, they are going to attack us like never before." -Stephen Harper, Canada's prime minister in waiting.
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